“Money is a language by which we communicate value.” This episode’s guest, Patrick Baron, greatly believes in this. Seeing as to how cryptocurrency is making it more accessible through the use of technology, he soon founded Validator Capital—a Validator company that supports an infrastructure layer of the Celo network. Here, he joins Monika Proffitt to talk about the many great things they are doing to make money become the social technology that it is. Patrick also takes us across his journey of stumbling into the industry and shares his thought on the future of cryptocurrency, how small to mid-sized businesses are going to adapt, and how his company is aiding in providing financial access to billions of people.
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Patrick Baron Of Validator Capital/ Celo
I’m here with Patrick Baron, the Founder of Validator Capital, and it does a lot of things. Thank you for making the time, Patrick, to come talk to us.
It’s my pleasure. Thanks for having me on, Monika.
Can you tell me a little bit about what is Validator Capital? What is the mission of this thing? Is it a fund?
Validator Capital is a digital asset fund and it’s focused specifically on the Celo ecosystem. We support an infrastructure layer of the Celo network. We run a validator group, which means that we participate in the consensus mechanism. We run validator nodes. We also contribute to the stability of the stablecoins on the protocol. We run a trading algorithm that contributes to that stability and also earns a profit for our LPs.
Give me a sense of this. You’re a fund, so you take in fiat US dollars and then you convert them to Celo Dollars or into infrastructure that can support Celo but I don’t hear about a lot of funds that only focused on one project. That’s interesting. Is it that you have invested in that project and so now you’re hands-on? A lot of investors want to get into the nuts and bolts of things be a COO or maybe a community member. Is it just that you were like, “I want to be able to see this thing flourish,” and you just love it? Is Celo your project as well or no?
Celo is not my project alone. There’s an entire community around Celo. The reason why I decided to focus on this is that you can either make a little bit of money a lot of time or you can make a lot of money a little bit of time. My thesis is that we’re going to see a power-law distribution in terms of the value of cruel within the crypto ecosystem as a whole.
You’re going to see a shift in the value of cruel ecosystem. What do you mean by that?
What I mean is that the Pareto Principle is in effect in the crypto economy like it is in every other part of nature. We will see a small handful of projects accumulate the vast majority of the users and value. I don’t believe that the current setup in terms of the ranking of the coins that we have is how it’s going to be many years from now. I think that there will be shifting. Ultimately, what’s missing is a global payments platform. A platform that can reach every single mobile phone in the world. I’ve been in the crypto space long enough to see many different attempts and approaches at achieving the goal of reaching the unbanked. This is the first project that I’ve seen and believe at a deep level can do that.
It can reach a billion users. It can bring a billion new users into the global financial economy and provide a very high level of value. My thesis is that this project in particular is special. That’s why I wanted to focus my time and our LP’s capital on providing as much value to that ecosystem as we can. That’s the reason why we decided to focus here. I also feel like there’s a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy in this and it’s not just putting money to work and then praying that it goes up. It’s being involved in the community on a daily basis, helping to make the decisions to bring good people in to spread the word. We can achieve the goals that we set out because we are active in this community and filling in the gaps where we see things that need to be filled in. It’s a very active strategy. It’s also working out quite well so far.
Tell me a little bit about, how did you even come across Celo? I know you were in traditional banking for a while but how did that transition happen? How did you leap and end up landing on Celo? That’s an interesting backstory there.
When I left the bank and I was working at a global retail bank, which is where I got very familiar with how the payments infrastructure works, what people depend on, and what people expect from that type of relationship. I also came away quite with a feeling that we could do better. It’s possible to have a better system than the systems that exist. I was working in the renewable energy industry at the time, which is a very capital-intensive industry and does quite a bit of good in the world but it doesn’t have the potential to scale in the same way that a software business does in terms of being lean. When I heard about Bitcoin, I was immediately intrigued, “What do you mean that you can make peer-to-peer payments? What do you mean that it doesn’t go through a centralized third party?”
“What do you mean that you heard about Bitcoin,” when was that? Like back in long ago did you heard about it. What was the context that you heard about Bitcoin that might be a little different than most?
This was back in 2013 and one of the other salespeople was bragging about how they were able to buy some drugs online. While I don’t condone that behavior, I was curious as to how that was possible. I understood how compliance and legacy systems work. That was the trigger that tripped me down the slippery rabbit hole. What I realized is that there’s just layer upon layer of interesting complexity. This technological system, it incorporates monetary policy, cryptography, economics and a lot of different disciplines and brings them together to create what I call, technology platform, this new social technology. I realized that this is going to change the world, the way that people interact and the way that people communicate with each other. Ultimately, money is a language. It’s the language by which we communicate value.”
I can’t claim that one night. I lifted that from Andreas Antonopoulos but there’s a fundamental truth to it. Money has always been a social technology. It’s been a technology that serves us. Simply what we’ve done is that we’ve upgraded that technology and now it’s more accessible, faster, more open, borderless and permission-less. When I came to understand these things and what the potential was, I was going to build a business and a career. I was going to contribute to this because it’s early, I felt like I could make a contribution to the ecosystem. It started in the industry, we built out an Ethereum powered derivatives trading platform.
Can you tell me what is that in English? Secondly, how did you come to even want to make a derivatives trading platform in Ethereum?
We essentially created two fiat-backed stablecoins, the USD-backed stablecoins, which is at a basic level. What it means is that say you put $1 into a custodial account and then you get a token that represents $1. It’s a bearer instrument and you can redeem that token for that underlying asset, in this case, the dollar or as well as Euro. We created two fiat-backed stablecoins dollars and Euros. We plugged into interactive brokers to get real-time price feeds. That was our oracle and traders could deposit margin into a smart contract. The smart contract becomes the escrow that would hold the assets and then they could set the time and the expiration dates. As prices fluctuate between the currency pairs, essentially at the end, the margin would go back and forth and then it would settle out depending on how the price had moved during that period.
I partnered with an instructor who was teaching at a blockchain university at the time I was taking classes there to better understand it and felt like it was interesting. It was 2015, right after Ethereum launched. I thought, “We can sell this. We can get the banks.” I was wrong, we couldn’t sell it. We did not find a product-market fit. It was way too early. I didn’t have the vision to launch the fiat-backed stablecoins as a standalone product but it led to other things and where I am now. You had asked how I got into Celo.
How did you find that? Tangents are good. You should tangent away but in this winding long path you’re like, “I was hiking through the mountains of Central America and I discovered this Celo.”
I read the white paper when it came out and thought it was quite interesting but it didn’t circle back to it until at least a year later. At this time, I was working on a project and we were attempting to build something very similar, a payments platform where you could text payments. We had a mechanism where you could text an encrypted payment link to any phone. You could text either Bitcoin or Ether and the recipient could click the link. It would establish a wallet if they didn’t have one and then deposit the funds.
The great thing is that it removes one of the hurdles, which is that typically you have to download a wallet and then you have to send the sender your public key, so they know where to send the money too. It removes that hurdles but there are sources of user experience problems associated with that mechanism. At the time, I was reaching out to stable point companies to build partnerships. I reached out to Celo and then quickly realized after spending some time with them that the approach that they were taking had overcome all the hurdles that we were facing and what I knew that we were going to face.
What was the hurdle that you saw that made you go, “I don’t have to build this anymore, they did it and this is amazing?”
One of the hurdles is like being able to access the blockchain and verify a transaction on your phone. If you’re sending a transaction on Ethereum, for example, and you want to verify a transaction for yourself on your phone, you’re probably not going to have enough storage space on your phone to be able to download an entire copy of the blockchain. It’s going to take several days to sync. One of the bigger hurdles is that if you want to send a transaction on a platform specifically Ethereum, you have to hold the native asset Ether in order to send a USD stablecoin. People have to have two assets in order to make one transaction. That’s a problem. People don’t get that. That’s not how things work in the traditional payment systems. Building a platform that no one has an ultra-light sync capability that any feature phone, any primitive Smartphone can verify transactions.
Second, making it incredibly easy to use such that you can pay transaction fees using the stablecoin. These small design changes can have outsized impacts like the butterfly effect where a small change can have a consequence of unknown magnitude, but the Celo team had been thinking through these problems, solved them and built quite an elegant solution. It does all the beautiful things that Ethereum does. At the same time, it doesn’t have a lot of baggage and can reach any phone in the world. You can send dollars to any phone number anywhere in the world. It clears and settles in less than five seconds, and it costs $1,000 of a penny to send the transaction. This is revolutionary stuff. We haven’t seen anything like this in the wild.
I tell people that the first wave of the internet was the internet of communication, where it was like, “You’re not going to believe it, but soon you can send an electronic message to anyone in the world. You can communicate in Kenya for free.” It’s like, “What? UPS is going to go away. UPS is going to fly. What about a package?” That’s okay but the fax machine went away, that’s for sure. You don’t need a fax machine at all anymore.
Unless you work in government.
You have to keep it as bureaucratic as possible. The second wave of the internet, it’s the internet of money and transactions. It’s like, “The big thing is you can transact with someone in Kenya for free.” People are going to say, “You mean banks are going to go away and the dollar is going to go away?” No, but Western Union is going to go away. PayPal, good thing they incorporated crypto because they were going to go away too. They weren’t going to make it if didn’t incorporate this. It’s very disruptive.
There were two big steps that were taken in this ecosystem. One of which is building a stability protocol at the base layer of the network. In the Ethereum ecosystem, we do have examples of stability protocols like MakerDAO, which issues Dai and that was quite innovative. It exists at a layer on top of the protocol itself. It’s not a part of the core Ethereum protocol. What the Celo team decided to do was to include a mechanism to issue stable valued assets at the base layer. The first one is Celo Dollars because that’s the most widely used unit of account in the world and it will be for the foreseeable future. That’s not going anywhere.
What we can do is support any ecology of value. What I believe we are going to see is a plethora of national fiat currencies that are denominated and exchanged on this network. As well as local regional indexes tied to say the price of rice in Southeast Asia, for example, or wheat in Sub-Sahara Africa. You can get a long tail of value and representations of value and send them cheaply and conveniently at very high throughput and service the local needs of the individual. Also, open up the door for them to exchange their value into whatever other store of value or currency they wish to hold.
I can think about my stepfather, who I loved dearly and he passed away many years ago. He told me about his research in East Africa about water. My mother was his second wife. He and his first wife did it in East Africa in the 1960s or maybe ‘50s. They went back 30 years later and they did the same study again. When they came back, they found the same little girl was now a woman and she was a matriarch in her community. What she did for work is that she saved up and bought the only cell phone in the village. She had a stopwatch. She would charge people to use the phone by a minute and that was her business. I can see how mobile phones are in the hands of many more people now so that won’t necessarily be a case. It would be interesting to see someone becoming their own little Western Union like, “I’m going to be your OTC desk care.”
That model that you just described in terms of individuals becoming tellers, exchange points and on-off ramps, we’ve seen that emerge in Kenya with M-Pesa where you have local stores that are also brokers where locals can exchange fiat currency for airtime minutes. You also have a wide network of sole proprietors that’s their side hustle and there’s no reason that same phenomenon won’t emerge all around the world. What I think that we’ll see is small to medium-sized businesses, adding this as a service to drive foot traffic as well as gig economy workers and adding another tool to their revenue driven toolbelt.
I don’t know what is about your user adoption on the Celo network, but do you have more user adoption in parts of Africa, South America or Central America? It sounds like what you’ve got isn’t the best market fit, the most immediate market fit and need are addressed in more emerging economies. Is that true?
That’s true. I’m in San Francisco, I don’t expect to be able to use Celo Dollars at my local coffee shop anytime soon and that’s because Apple Pay works well. We’ve got Venmo covers the peer-to-peer payments ecosystem here in the United States, and it works quite well for the purpose that it’s designed for. These types of systems of infrastructure don’t exist in every part of the world.
Are most of your users overseas?
Most of the users are in Latin America, Africa and Southeast Asia.
What region has the most users for you guys?
Latin America has the most. We’ve seen in Venezuela over the past couple of years just the complete deterioration of the value of the native currency. The result of that is that there’s been essentially dollarization of the Venezuelan economy, but what we don’t have there is a system of digital payments that are widely used. It’s very much a cash-based society. That’s one of the most extreme examples of value disappearing at no fault of the citizens but because of mismanagement of the currency. Adoption in these areas of Latin America and Africa, where the leaders have not been good stewards of the value of the currency will say, “We’re seeing quite high rates of adoption and I expect that’s going to pick up.” What you do is that you have a phone, you have essentially a bank in your pocket. You are the CEO of that bank. If you memorize your seed phrase, then you have complete sovereignty over your money. You can choose which currency you choose to hold and to do business in. You can access tools like Moola, which is a money market protocol.
That’s the segue right there. I was wondering when we’re going to get to the money market protocol. First of all, what is a protocol and the most basic terms? What are the new machinations of a protocol that you come up with?
I would describe it as a language, a shared set of standards that people use to communicate. If you’re on the same protocol, then you know when you’re saying X command, you’re going to get Y results.
It’s a set of agreements?
Yeah. It’s a set of ways of communicating between nodes so that they know how to interpret the message they’re receiving and what response to give. It’s a set of call and response commands essentially at a high level.
The more agreements that are on a network like Celo, then the more robust the opportunities to input X and get Y or input C and get D, right?
Exactly. You can build base layer protocols that can do things like the stability protocol and then you can build on top of that. The money market protocol uses this base layer consensus algorithm. It relies on the security that’s provided by that consensus mechanism. We get certain hard promises around the security of the network. We also can depend on the stability of the token that’s pegged to a dollar. From there, we can start building applications on top of that. It’s like a pyramid, right at the base layer, you’ve got the consensus and stablecoin. Above that, you can build applications on top of that. The reason why I decided to build Moola over on Celo is because when I worked for a retail bank, one of the realizations I had is that people need a bank account for us.
They need to be able to deposit and withdraw their money to hold their money, send and receive these basic functionalities. They also need to be able to get credit and earn interest. Those are what I consider to be the core pillars. The base layer protocol solves the first one to being able to send, receive and hold money. Money market protocol adds those next two pillars of being able to get credits and earn interest. The way that will it works is that a liquidity provider can deposit say Celo dollars and that’s it. They can just sit on that and then it’s going to earn interest, earn yield and accumulate compound interest.
How do you determine how much the interest is going to be and how it gets paid?
It’s a variable interest rate and a function of the utilization of the liquidity pool. What that means is that let’s say that there is $100 in the liquidity pool. If $1 is being borrowed, then the interest rate that’s being paid by the borrower and earned by the liquidity provider is quite low. If somebody comes in and borrows $90 of the $100, then the interest rate is going to get much higher. What that does is essentially incentivize an equilibrium. When the utilization gets too high as defined by the protocol, then the interest rate gets high and it becomes expensive to borrow. That incentivizes borrowers to pay back their outstanding loans or liquidity providers to deposit more capital. That’s how itself balances into always having some liquidity available for people who want to want to withdraw their funds. What questions can I answer about that? I know there’s a lot there.
I’m like, “How do we start?” The idea that someone’s going to put money and it has to do with how many people are there borrowing. That’s what’s going to supply and demand wise, just drive up the prices. There’s got to be an equilibrium that makes sense. What a lot of people that are newer to crypto get stuck with, it’s like you took a city, took out all the stoplights. You’re like, “We can drive, it’s fine. The algorithm, we’ll figure it out.” You’re like, “No. Who’s in charge? What happens when there’s a crash and who do we call?” It’s like, “We work it out.” “How do you work it out?” “We have algorithms in these protocols.” It almost says not quite yet self-driving car city with no stoplights.
There’s a difference between not having government and governance. There’s no government in the systems but there is a system of governance. There’s a system of rulemaking. The difference is that here, the rules are public and everybody knows what they are. There are so-called hard promises where you know that you are going to be able to expect certain behavior. If you do certain things, there will be certain outcomes where if you don’t do certain things, it won’t be certain outcomes. This is how these systems are able to organize. It’s an organizational tool. It helps people to organize. Celo built a governance mechanism at the base layer. That was the other pillar I eluded. There’s a native asset and a finite quantity of the native asset. There are a billion units that will ever be in existence. Anybody who owns the native asset can vote on governance proposals or can propose governance proposals.
Is that the Celo Dollar?
That’s the Celo native asset. There are two assets on Celo: the Celo Dollars and the Celo native asset.
What’s the Celo native assets ticker?
CELO.
What is the Celo Dollars ticker?
CUSD.
Guys, if you want to use something as a utility is a great way to transfer money, you can go with cUSD and you’re going to hold if you want but if you hold CELO, you’ve got to have the opportunity to participate as a voter, right?
Yeah. As a caveat to that Celo native asset is listed on Coinbase as cGLD. It was initially called Celo Gold but we had a community governance proposal to change the name from Celo Gold to just CELO because it’s not tied to gold and steel and the analogy doesn’t hold and we felt like it would be confusing. Unfortunately, Coinbase launched the trading pair without taking that into consideration and so they had the wrong ticker. Coinbase has not fixed that issue, which is quite embarrassing for them but I’m sure they’ll get to that eventually.
The more publicly we can shame them the better. Maybe we should repeat that story.
They’re an investor in Celo, so they should be on this thing. They do provide the trading pairs and they have been a good partner to the ecosystem in that regard. I would like to see them fix this one small thing because it’s important.
How is the Celo coin done? Bitcoin is going too insane and it’s finally cooling off but has it been following that or has it gone its own way?
Bitcoin has outperformed Celo. It’s still very early in the life cycle of this ecosystem. We launched the Mainnet in April 2020 and turn on all the functionality through June 2020. We would light up different contracts and make sure things are going. It’s quite young and the product-market fit still has not been achieved yet. It’s certainly on the horizon and it’s quite apparent where it’s going to come from. The majority of the alpha is stopping emerging markets.
It’s not a US-based anything but it’s more of an emerging market space?
No, there is value to be had at a global capacity. It’s just who is the issue most pressing for if you are starving because the currency that you’re holding is depreciating in value at a million percent per year, then you need to find another solution and you need to survive. For people who are suffering because of financial mismanagement, I anticipate that they will be the early adopters because it is the most pressing need. Stepping back from that, if you look at like a macro scale, look at how much sovereign debt is out there that has a negative interest. Compare that to being able to come into one of these ecosystems, one of these money market protocols and earn 3%, 4%, 5%, 6%, 7%, 8% APY with arguably an equivalent risk profile. Once the larger global investor base turns on to this and becomes aware of the new tools that exist and didn’t exist before and these new ways to generate yield on capital in a very low-risk way, I think that we’ll see a trickle and then a flood. That’s my thesis.
That’s a great thesis. I’m 100% behind that. I agree with that. That’s also why I’m like, “Art is great. I did it for twenty years. A wonderful thing.” It’s like being an astronaut, you’re like, “What’s new? Why am I not seen yet? I’ve got to go make it.” To give that up, it took a lot. It took something as cool as watching for me to go. I think I’m going to have to go apart and start doing something even more innovative because that’s what it is. It’s more innovative than trying to imagine a new world it’s truly building something that we’ve never seen before. It’s cool. What did you study in school? How did you get into this? Were you always a finance guy or maybe always a coder? Were you also an artist or a skateboard kid? I’m trying to get a sense of who you are.
There’s a difference between not having government and governance. There’s no government in the systems, but there is a system of governance.CLICK TO TWEET
I did play a lot of sports growing up. Every sport you can imagine. I studied business. I got a degree in business. I went to Wake Forest University for my undergrad and was very much entrepreneurially minded even there. I spent the first portion of my career in sales and business development roles. I’ve always had an eye for appreciating complexity and complex systems. Something that stimulates my mind. At the same time, having a business background, I’m also very interested in systems of money and finance in general being also spending some time in the bank. I live in San Francisco. Technology, innovation and startups are everywhere and so this is the ultimate recipe of all of those. It’s the hurricane combination of technology, finance and innovation. Putting it all together to change the world and bring billions of people into the financial ecosystem, that’s what’s happening.
When you were getting out of business school and trying to figure out which way to go and going into banking and thinking about bigger things than that and always having your eye on doing your own thing, in that journey, when do you think is the most telling point of when you went you zigged, when everybody else was zagging? When did you go a definitively different route and you knew it and it riskier maybe but it was like you had to go and cutaway from the crowd?
I left banking because I was looking for something that I felt was more purpose-driven. I went into the solar energy industry. I did find quite a bit of purpose in the work that I was doing there. I felt like it was making a difference and there was a real change happening but it wasn’t happening at the pace that I wanted. I felt like it was going to be a slow-moving industry for a number of decades but the momentum was certainly picking up. I kept looking to see what else was out there where I felt like I could find a sense of purpose and to make a positive impact and do something of significance. These checked all of those boxes when I found it.
This is your zag.
It did have to do with being not enjoying my time at the bank and feeling like there’s a better way to do this, so don’t sit around and complain about it. Make something happen. That’s how I got here.
You said you’ve had a lot of projects. I know you did Moola and you’re very involved with some Celo Camp.
It’s an accelerator. Originally, the people behind it did one with Libra early on and realized that Celo had a lot more potential behind it and so they pivoted over and have since done two batches. It’s a great experience. There are weekly meetings that we’re half of the meetings are helping you to run a startup, build a product and meet the right people. The other half is it’s about self-care, becoming a better individual and a better human being. The connections that I made within the community and being able to integrate the project that I’m working on are invaluable. The connections with other humans who I like and want to spend time with are even more valuable. We had the demo day. If you want to watch the demos there it’s live on Crowdcast.
From what I can understand some major projects that you’ve built so far, what is your revenue model?
The fund is a traditional 2 and 20 structure and the fund generates revenue by participating in the consensus mechanism. There is both staking yields that is when we lock up Celo and vote for a Validator group that is participating in the consensus, you get between 5 to 6% APY on the Celo. Our Validator nodes are also compensated. On Bitcoin, the miners are compensated with new Bitcoin. In this case, the Validators who are securing the network are compensated in Celo Dollars, which makes it easier to operationalize and forecast expenses and these things. There’s also the trading aspect of maintaining the price peg, which requires doing a triangular arbitrage trade between the underlying, in this case, the stablecoin Celo Dollars and then the Celo native assets. That triangular arbitrage trade is intended to be profitable to give people an incentive.
Crypto economic systems are built to create an incentive structure to incentivize specific behavior and the behavior is intended to secure the system. If they’re structured properly, then it’s profitable for people to do things that are in the best interest of the network. We’re simply jumping in the river and in swimming with the flow of the water from what it’s intended to be doing which also drives returns. The protocol Moola, their origination fee, which is a few basis points as well as a spread that the protocol takes, which comes from borrowers who are paying the APR. It takes a little bit of that and deposits it into a reserve account. That’s going to become a financial backstop in the event of an insurance fund. It will also be used to compensate governance token holders to participate in the governance process of the Moola protocol.
You said the fund was the first thing is just a 2 and 20. How big is the fund now?
About $1 million.
Full disclosure, I met you through Weild & Co., where I’m also a registered agent and a managing director. I met you through the emergents team where I realized you were also raising money. They’re fantastic. I was like, “I want more innovators for the show.” They’re like, “We have. Talk to Patrick right now.” It’s been great.
What I’ll say about the emergents team is it’s quite on the fringe of innovation and there are a lot of layers that you have to understand in order to get where the value is coming from and what the big picture opportunity is. Those people, after speaking to them for 1 hour or 2, asked all the right questions, understood exactly what I’m doing and what the bigger opportunity is. I was quite impressed with their level of understanding of this because you don’t always get that from traditional finance people. You’ve got to let some of the legacy thinking go in order to see the future.
You have to translate it heavily into a metaphor that they can understand that you almost lose it. It’s innovative. It’s outside of what you know it’s, “See the horizon line, it’s just past that.”
It’s been great working with the emergents team.
How long have you been working with the emergents team?
It’s been a few months. I don’t remember exactly when we started working together.
What’s the number one thing that a reader can do to make the most of this show? Where can they go and download, see, touch, feel and figure out what you guys are doing?
The call to action is if you’re interested in the things I’ve said is to download the Valora Wallet. That’s the native Celo wallets that you can text money to any other phone number in the world. That would be to download the Valora Wallets and start sending money to people around the world and amaze them.
I have some ideas right away if we want to text some money too so that’s fantastic. Do you have anything else that you’d like to cover and you’ve been so busy? I feel like in some ways the year has been three days long and in other ways, it’s been 3,000 days long but not all of us have been as prolific in this weird time work with you have been.
What I would leave us with is that if what I’m talking about resonates with you and if you believe that we can build a better financial system, and that we can unbank all of us and provide financial access to billions of people who don’t have it, come join our community. It’s an open community. There are plenty of roles that need to be filled. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done. We need all the skillsets. You don’t have to be a computer scientist. We need more people who are outside of that particular skillset. Join the Celo community and come to change the world with us.
This has been such an enormous pleasure. I love getting to know what you guys are doing, who you’re affecting, the lives that are changing for this for the better and the impact-driven focus that you’ve got. It’s been an absolute pleasure to talk with you, Patrick. Thank you for making the time. This is great. Any final words? Then let’s go change the world together.
That’s where we’re going to end up. Thanks a lot, Monika. I appreciate you having me on.
Thanks, Patrick. We’ll catch you next time on the show. I’m signing off. This is Monika Proffitt and Patrick Baron. Thanks, guys.
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About Patrick Baron
Changing the world for the better, one block at a time.